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correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Questions about clikertraining and the "schutzhund"-sport
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon Katrin + Kerou » Sonntag 11. Dezember 2011, 02:16

Blue Luna hat geschrieben:
Katrin + Kerou hat geschrieben:Ich weiß, dass es so heißt. Es hatte schon einen Grund, warum ich ,,versteck,, geschrieben habe.

Could you explain that? :gruebel:
Why have you used the German word? Yes, because it is a command and it is called ,, versteck,,. The dog does not know, when sombody says ,, blind,, that blind means ,, versteck,,.

dberensmann hat geschrieben:.... if you want a dog beging for the sleeve or bite pillow go ahead and try out one of the possibilities above. :nein:

Detlef, do you want to doubt that the method of Glöckner, Heuwinkl or Fuchs really works on a national level?
I think, all of them have already proved the efficiency of that method.

Heuwinkl and Knut Fuchs are very good. You can look at videos where they have participated. Very good results in C/protection.
And you told me, that you know Mia Skogster from a seminar. She trained in Heuwinkl for one year.
Here in the Forum are Dino and Reinhard. They train like Heuwinkl and perhaps they can help you. Very nice people ;-)


dberensmann hat geschrieben:.... if you still want to train your dog on a national level, keep doing what you did and just let your dog know that there is no way for him to get to close to the sleeve without you having him punished. after all you can ask "Les Flores" about what would be the best to do in order to keep your dog clean!

You want her to punish her dog? Have I understood you right?
And who is "Les Flores"?
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon Katrin + Kerou » Sonntag 11. Dezember 2011, 02:20

bolleboxer hat geschrieben:Okay, I try it to write in english.... :ertrink:

My way to teach my dog barking in the blind is like "Glöckner" (Klaus Glöckner), he wrote a booklet how about the nonviolent way to teach barking, but I think it's only in german.

In this video the dog is 5 month old and learns barking like Glöckner. (Glöckner do not use clicker, but it is the same way)



The way is not to bite in the blind. The "click" is the order for the helper to throw the toy away. Heuwinkl/Fuchs are using a special biting arm for throwing away -> "Wurfarm" http://www.haleico.de/sport-und-ausbildung/schutzdienst/knut-fuchs-wurfarm-jute-44282?sAction=index The opinion is that the dog also mustn't have to bite in the blind when he gets testing.


Thank you very much that you have shared the video. I have a book from ,,Glöckner,,. But i've never read it :steinigung:
Katrin + Kerou
 

Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon shade whitesel » Sonntag 11. Dezember 2011, 03:32

Thanks very much for all your videos and answers! The videos are extremely helpful so that I can see exactly what people are doing and think on whether that would work on my dogs.
Reik is also titled in french ring, so I have to be extremely careful about "throwing the sleeve" if he is not used to it. (He might just bite the body).
So today we tried it on leash with a suit jacket on the helper for extra security. The dog got the hang of it pretty quickly. I do think this will help to keep his distance clean, if the reinforcement is away from the helper. Great idea! I am really glad that you understand what I am talking about.
I can also teach him a little of this myself without the helper.

Detlef, I have learned many things from Les. He is an experienced trainer and I value his opinion. We respectfully agree to disagree when it comes to talking punishment or how to keep a dog "clean" in the blind. I am lucky that he still respects me enough to work my dog how I want, which is not what always happens when people use different methods.
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon dberensmann » Sonntag 11. Dezember 2011, 11:59

shade whitesel hat geschrieben:Detlef, I have learned many things from Les. He is an experienced trainer and I value his opinion. We respectfully agree to disagree when it comes to talking punishment or how to keep a dog "clean" in the blind. I am lucky that he still respects me enough to work my dog how I want, which is not what always happens when people use different methods.

hi shade,
good for you that Les respects you so much, this is telling me something about you! :) I talked to Scott as well and he told me also great things about you and your training. I always have in mind that you already made it to the nationals, and of course there is got to be a reason why, ..... you are a good dog trainer no doubt about it. :gut:

about the training technic's of several very successfully teams in germany I just want to admit, that using these method's it seems to me it is important to imprint the dog in this way, because it is not that easy to change a dogs behavior just by throwing something out of the blind. heuwinkel dogs learn from the beginning (as a puppy) to dominate the helper by showing barking based on aggression. the main reason for them to do that is not to wait for someone to throw a bite pillow or something. that would be to easy!! on the other side, using a negative stimulus for a limited amount of time just to teach the dog were he is going to feel more comfortable does not means to screw him up! it just makes it black and white, so he can adjust his behavior in order to be successful.

anyways, I am sure you will find your way and maybe you will be able to post a video of one of your training sessions.

greetings to washington, a beautiful state with lot's of rain!! :ertrink:

detlef
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon Blue Luna » Sonntag 11. Dezember 2011, 20:03

Bitte stellt keine deutschen Beiträge in diesen Bereich des Forums ein! :schlaumeier:
Ich kann nicht jeden Beitrag von mehreren Hundert Wörtern ins Englische übersetzen.
Darum sollte sich bitte jeder User vorher selbst kümmern.

Danke!

Please don't write any german posts into the english spoken area :schlaumeier:
I can't translate every single post of hundreds of words by my own.
Every user should try for it by his own.

Thank you!

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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon dberensmann » Sonntag 11. Dezember 2011, 23:28

Blue Luna hat geschrieben:
dberensmann hat geschrieben:.... if you want a dog beging for the sleeve or bite pillow go ahead and try out one of the possibilities above. :nein:

Detlef, do you want to doubt that the method of Glöckner, Heuwinkl or Fuchs really works on a national level?
I think, all of them have already proved the efficiency of that method.

no I won't, and there is no doubt about it, but, there is a difference to imprint a dog in this way or that way. most important, ....the main philosophies of heuwinkel or fuchs is not just to throw a bite pillow, there is much more behind it.

Blue Luna hat geschrieben:
dberensmann hat geschrieben:.... if you still want to train your dog on a national level, keep doing what you did and just let your dog know that there is no way for him to get to close to the sleeve without you having him punished. after all you can ask "Les Flores" about what would be the best to do in order to keep your dog clean!

You want her to punish her dog? Have I understood you right?

yes, you've got it. don't you think knut fuchs or the heuwinkel team does not use any compulsion or negative stimulus at all?? there is nothing bad on it unless you taught your dog before what is write for wrong! to compete with a dog on a national level it takes a lot more then just to use positive reinforcement. at least that is what I learned for years. I might be wrong.
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon lusna » Montag 12. Dezember 2011, 13:05

dberensmann hat geschrieben:to compete with a dog on a national level it takes a lot more then just to use positive reinforcement. at least that is what I learned for years. I might be wrong.


... so if this is it at the end, we can stopp discussing here training our dogs for highlevel performance without still using the old way?

AND if somebody wants to change a behaviour he can stick with the old way because trying to change the behaviour without the new methods which are the topic of this forum will not have the expected result?

really - that's what i doubt.

yours,

claudia
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon dberensmann » Montag 12. Dezember 2011, 13:21

lusna hat geschrieben:AND if somebody wants to change a behaviour he can stick with the old way because trying to change the behaviour without the new methods which are the topic of this forum will not have the expected result?

... you have to use new ways but you should not forget what worked very well before, it is that easy. if we want to talk about how to train a dog successfully like the guys from heuwinkel, then you have to see the whole picture, they do use compulsion without any doubt. so try to make up your mind and be open also for what worked well in the past.
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon shade whitesel » Montag 12. Dezember 2011, 16:58

Detlef wrote
"... you have to use new ways but you should not forget what worked very well before, it is that easy. if we want to talk about how to train a dog successfully like the guys from heuwinkel, then you have to see the whole picture, they do use compulsion without any doubt. so try to make up your mind and be open also for what worked well in the past."

Actually the more I train the more I find this to be true. The concepts and the reasons things (including compulsion) have worked in the past is that most of them do have some validity. I really like to know these things because I can decide to get the picture and the training of the dog in a different way since I have chosen to use as little pressure as possible.
I might talk with one of my friends who thinks a flashy bark in the blind can only be obtained with the dog in conflict due to compulsion with the correct distance. Can I create that same "picture" with frustration and no compulsion? I don't know. But so far I think I have created that with this particular dog.

I have learned many things by going to seminars of people with different methods. But when it comes to problem solving, people with different methods are not going to help me, since they believe the dog is being "disobedient" and needs punished and I believe that he needs taught or sometimes that his brain is drawing him where the reinforcement is. I am finding it is a whole new learning experience for me to maintain the dog at National level, than to get him there!
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Re: correct distance from the helper in the blind ?

Beitragvon DenniK » Montag 12. Dezember 2011, 18:35

shade whitesel hat geschrieben:... since they believe the dog is being "disobedient" and needs punished and I believe that he needs taught ...

In my opinion this is one of the biggest and most common mistakes: dog trainers/ handlers thinking their dogs are being disobedient on purpose. I think you're right, that most of the time the dog has not been taught properly. But sometimes the dog tries to find "shortcuts" to his reward and especially there it is sometimes - but definitely not always - helpful to give this unwanted option a negative connotation, not to punish the dog but to help him understand.
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